Curse

Vulkanyaz · Apr 10, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Baddock

*sigh* Trolls on GWG, who would have thought.

</endposting>

FYI that was not a troll, just my view on the subject.

xDusT II · Apr 10, 2009, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Out of curiosity is there any way Anet can actually detect you using a macro? I have a few macros that hold down CTRL or ALT all game or that automatically Foul Feast off players 1 and 2 and just from observation it would be impossible to tell whether I was using a macro or just performing the actions myself. How exactly can ANet detect these forms of macros?

pumpkin pie · Apr 10, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I am glad to hear you say that as I still haven't figured it out yet. I do like the lighted keyboard so I can play with the lights out.

hahaha

yes I love the lighted keyboard as well as I often playing without my lights on, no point learning it now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

Out of curiosity is there any way Anet can actually detect you using a macro? I have a few macros that hold down CTRL or ALT all game or that automatically Foul Feast off players 1 and 2 and just from observation it would be impossible to tell whether I was using a macro or just performing the actions myself. How exactly can ANet detect these forms of macros?

hrmz, i wander if that is why sometime I feel like another player has super fast reaction on top of better internet connection.

and why does my computer make this weird scratching sounds.

Another Question
After your character is outside of town, and you use your G15 macros to play the game, how exactly does Anet tell weather yours using macros or not? i mean when yours out of the town your on your own instance. right.

Bill Clinton · Apr 10, 2009, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater

Anyone here played Nightfall?

The Tihark Orchard Mission has a portion that requires you to match emotes at a rapid pace. Touch typing, or more importantly, bound emotes, give you a distinct advantage.

So even binding emotes can give you a gameplay advantage. That doesn't include holiday quests (Elder Nofunn). Banned.

Grey areas are unacceptable. Anet needs to explicitly state what is not allowed. Everything else needs to be. If something is being abused, they need to add it to the 'not allowed' list, give everyone a week to comply, then ban them.

Short scripts that combine a few commands or keystrokes are no more of an advantage than VoIP or a Mouse with extra keys. Or even some poor sod who is unemployed and has hours to bone up on his PVP skillz.

Some people could have the fastest machine with a G15 and a G5 Mouse and a T3 connection with no lag and still suck. Others could play GW on a solar powered 4 function calculator and pwn everyone.

Such is life.

I think you're completely missing the reason why there is this part of the EULA. And a lot of other people are, too.
Its not actually about whether one person is given advantage advantage over another.
You've said it yourself - there are tonnes of things that can make someone more advantaged over someone else - it would be incredibly ridiculous to actually make a rule to try and keep people on a 'level playing field' when there are so many other uncontrolable factors that make it 'unlevel'

No, this is to make sure people are playing the game. As simple as that. Yes, someone who sets up his G15 to keg farm while he has a beer down the pub is obviously going to advantaged over other players in the monetary department - but its not about that. Its not about people getting butthurt.

And when we realise that, we also realise there are a lot fewer grey areas than everyones maing out. Mapping emotes to a key is fine. You are playing the game. As are many other things.

immortius · Apr 10, 2009, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

After your character is outside of town, and you use your G15 macros to play the game, how exactly does Anet tell weather yours using macros or not? i mean when yours out of the town your on your own instance. right.

All instances are on their servers.

pumpkin pie · Apr 10, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by immortius

All instances are on their servers.

ahahah, a spybot! lol joking,

i suppose they have a way of seeing/tracking every player if they want to

immortius · Apr 10, 2009, 06:28 AM // 06:28

In practice the server probably records a whole bunch of information on how a player acts, and some program analyses these statistics for signs of automation - at least as a first pass.

Chocobo1 · Apr 10, 2009, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Baddock

*sigh* Trolls on GWG, who would have thought.

</endposting>

How is that a troll? Everything he listed could be counted as an advantage. GWG are far too eager to call people trolls, I doubt you even know what a troll is, except for it's someone who has a different opinion to you -_-;.

The only real use for a macro keyboard I could see would be binding /stuck to a command for HA running or certain farms. Other than that it's useless or it's banworthy.

MisterB · Apr 10, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

ANet has bots checking the server logs for bots. Basically.

Enon · Apr 10, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

I sympathise, Ulyria - the usage of macros has always been a grey area at best.

How exactly is it grey? It's nothing more than common sense. Macros that normally require several keys to be pressed, such as attack skill chains, aren't allowed. Macro'ing single emotes is allowed. Besides, there's no need to macro anything besides emotes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

As for the rest of you, a little less of the "got wut u deserved, cheater" would be appreciated.

Got what you deserved, cheater.

Messy · Apr 10, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusa

So where does she say this? If you're referring to http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_..._ask_something then if you read it she says the opposite, that they do not ban for GWx2 or using two accounts at the same time.

Actually that is not what she says.... somebody posted 8 possible scenarios that involve 2 accounts, some with GWx2, some with 2 machines, some with 2 players. What Gaile said was:

Quote:

Thank you for the excellent breakdown of questions related to the use of dual-account systems or programs such as GWx2. I can tell you that the 8th question, regarding using two separate machines for muling between separate accounts is definite allowed. I do it personally and I asked years ago about its permissability, so there's no question in my mind it's ok. As for each of the other questions, I must get an official answer for you.

and question 8 is :

Quote:

8. Is it ok to use 2 separate machines to simply transfer things between accounts (muling)?

So she didn't even say that this was ok:

Quote:

7. Is it ok to uwe GWx2 to simply transfer things between accounts (muling)?

so this really sounds like, for the time being, until she gets an official answer... stay away from GWx2.

Empress Amarox · Apr 10, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulkanyaz

FYI that was not a troll, just my view on the subject.

I'd just like to say I agree. I didn't think you were trolling whatsoever.

---

And all this GWx2 crap scares me... I don't use a program, I hex edit my GW and modify registry to run 2 copies (because I'm paranoid and don't trust 3rd party programs), but it's still the same thing basically.

Getting banned only for muling and transferring stuff across my own accounts would suck the big one - or a couple of them at the same time given all my accounts...

fusa · Apr 10, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Actually that is not what she says.... somebody posted 8 possible scenarios that involve 2 accounts, some with GWx2, some with 2 machines, some with 2 players. What Gaile said was

You have a horrible understanding of English language "As a general rule, we do not block for the use of that program. We do block for botting." clearly means we don't ban for GWx2 alone. This was in response to someone asking if they ban for GWx2.

The fear mongering over GWx2 and Logitech G15 is extremely ignorant. If anyone has any common sense they can use both with out being banned. Most of the people whining are just idiots who cant play a game without using a program to play for them. People crying that they dont have exact definition of what is allowed and not allowed in each and ever possible situation are too stupid to think for themselves.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · Apr 10, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Obviouly, a sin going though an entire skill set fo a spike would be a bed use of the G15... but here is an interestesting senario...

Senario: Urgoz Warren 1HP BiP

- BiP plays in the final slot on the party list (slot 12)
- BiP has a Macro to use BiP on each person in the party (23 keystrokes)

Macro would be: End, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1.

Although there is an automation of 23 keystrokes going on... there is some human involvement to run the macro. You still have to hit the key each time for the Party BiP, move around with the party, rez people, trigger gates, ect, on your own under human control. So the only thing that is being run is the actual BiP for the party.

Would this fall into the ok, bad or gray catagory?

Note: this is not being sarcastic, or working around the rules ect... I am just throwing out an actual senario of a set of diffcult set of keystrokes simplified via the G15.

MercenaryKnight · Apr 10, 2009, 07:23 PM // 19:23

I would think that having that as a script/ macro would be ok. As far as my knowledge a bannable/ noticeable event would be if you made that necro auto follow and randomly cast the bips in a form of a bot.

I think people just don't tell the truth about their "macros" that they have been using and gotten banned for.

I think banning for anything other than bot activity would be kind of stupid in my opinion. Theres not really a reason to make macros other than laziness or having to repeat a skill a lot. But if a person wants to make a script to bip all the slots then how is it effecting anyone else.

wilebill · Apr 10, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Well, we get no statement from ANet as usual. Didn't really expect one.

I think there are some guidelines posted on the World of WarCraft forums for the use of macros that are informative. Basically, in WoW you can macro keystroke sequences including spells and functions callable via WoW's internal macro language. Of course, GW does not have an internal macro language.

Sequences only though; no repetition, no looping. Internal macro language support only.

However, even in WoW following the above guidelines you can still get into trouble doing the same thing with the macro keyboard that you would be safe doing with the internal macro language. In a famous case, a player set up a simple keyboard macro to sequence three spells while leveling up his Priest.

At one point he parked the character at the side of the trail and went away for a few minutes and forgot to set AFK status. At precisely that time a Game Master showed up to have a look, a bot having detected a regular pattern of spells not implemented by the internal macro language. Since player did not respond to GM's chat, GM concluded that player was a bot and gave his account a permanent ban.

Player was a VIP in the community and the community relations manager was on his side. Even so, it took weeks to get his ban revoked.

Better safe than sorry, I think. When you don't know what your rights are, it is best to assume you have none.

Firebaall · Apr 10, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

It's simple...

Are you active in the game ( i.e. directing the macro during it's effect )? You're fine. Even if you bind mutiple skills together and such. You're still playing.

Or.... are you not active ( i.e. turning the macro on, and leaving your computer )? Then you're not fine. You're botting.

Honestly, where's the confusion?

Boneyard Spleeneater · Apr 11, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

It's simple...

Are you active in the game ( i.e. directing the macro during it's effect )? You're fine. Even if you bind mutiple skills together and such. You're still playing.

Or.... are you not active ( i.e. turning the macro on, and leaving your computer )? Then you're not fine. You're botting.

Honestly, where's the confusion?

The confusion comes in when you turn on the macro and sit with your feet up on your desk or start chatting. What if you have a HFFF script running in your G15 Macro, but you are at your keyboard chatting? You could argue you are sitting there playing, even though for all intents and purposes you are botting.

An example I just thought of is if you are running a Mo primary and H/H. You have to call targets, but you probably spend much of your time targeting your own party. A macro that selects a party member, casts a particular spell (or set of spells), and then selects the closest foe (so you can tab back to your target) would be very useful. While it may not be necessary all the time, in near wipes, being able to quickly select a party member and cast WoH or Guardian can really be useful, without having to make extra mouse movements or keystrokes that take you away from your home position.

These are not 'bot' behaviors, and I would posit they are perfectly legitimate uses for macros on a keyboard.

Perhaps instead of a grey area, there needs to be a more streamlined and defined process for appealing bans due to this (assuming this is a problem, and we aren't all talking out our collective tuckii), where the Ban-ee can e-mail the macro used and get a ruling, and either continue using it, or remove it and get unbanned quickly.

BTW, I like the idea of perma-pressing alt and ctrl. I was wondering how to pull that off. My only problem is that I have my scroll button set to tab and shift-tab (the left and right scroll wiggle, it's got range on the G5), so I can switch critters without moving my hand from skills or movement. I have, more than once, minimized the screen due to alt being pressed when I hit tab to select and enemy. Not cool.

Guess I should just turn tab off and change enemy select to something I don't use (like arrow keys).

Firebaall · Apr 11, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Your first example is botting. If you have time to put your feet up, chat, leave the room and take a piss, or whatever else strikes your fancy.....you're botting.

Your second example is not botting.

It's clear, and only gets "grey" when people try to find excuses to bot, or justify their actions.

You not having to be there = botting.

xDusT II · Apr 11, 2009, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf

Obviouly, a sin going though an entire skill set fo a spike would be a bed use of the G15... but here is an interestesting senario...

Senario: Urgoz Warren 1HP BiP

- BiP plays in the final slot on the party list (slot 12)
- BiP has a Macro to use BiP on each person in the party (23 keystrokes)

Macro would be: End, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1, PgUp, 1.

Although there is an automation of 23 keystrokes going on... there is some human involvement to run the macro. You still have to hit the key each time for the Party BiP, move around with the party, rez people, trigger gates, ect, on your own under human control. So the only thing that is being run is the actual BiP for the party.

Would this fall into the ok, bad or gray catagory?

Note: this is not being sarcastic, or working around the rules ect... I am just throwing out an actual senario of a set of diffcult set of keystrokes simplified via the G15.

I'm just wondering how exactly they can detect these sort of macros. The ones I use only automate an incredibly small portion of gameplay (select player 1, switch to 40/40 SR set, FF) and still require me to control everything else. I don't believe macros leave anything detectable server side so I'm unsure how exactly they would be able to determine these types of macros from just normal play.